Episode 9: The Producer's Eye: How Thinking Like a Producer Makes You a Better Director
Download MP3So every great director that I've had the honor of working with or getting to know or watching their process shares one thing in common. And it's not their visual style, it's not the type of stories they pick, it's not how they work with actors. It's that they have the ability to simultaneously think both as a director and also as a producer. And what I mean by that is they have the ability to understand how their creative choices and their creative needs impact both the financial aspects of the production and also the logistics of it. And that gives them an incredible advantage over a director that only can think creatively.
Bob Degus:And in this episode, we're going to explore how you too can think as a producer. After forty years in Hollywood and watching more than 3,000 short films as an Oscar voter, I know what separates a good short film from one that wins awards. My name is Bob Degus. This is the Hollywood Film Coach Podcast where we'll help you create award winning short films. Episode nine, The Producer's Eye, how thinking like a producer makes you a better director.
Bob Degus:So in episode eight, we looked at festival strategy, how you might come up with a plan and an approach to get your short film into festivals, get it seen by people, and have a better chance than if you didn't have a strategy. In this episode, we're going to really look at how a director needs to think as a producer and what that means, and how working through that lens actually opens up a tremendous amount more options for you than if you are just a single-minded director who's only thinking about things from the creative perspective. So let's talk about what a producer actually is. It's easiest to start out by what it's not. A producer isn't somebody who raises money and goes away.
Bob Degus:It's not someone who just manages logistics while the director makes their art. It's not someone whose job ends as soon as the film starts shooting. Right? It's none of those things. A producer actually is the person who holds the entire film together, from what it's going to cost to creatively what's involved, to the story, to the casting, to post production, to how to market it and how to bring it out in the world.
Bob Degus:The producer holds all of those things and is really overseeing the entire production. It's also a producer is the job to protect the director's vision. So the director has a creative vision for the movie, and their primary focus is creatively about bringing this vision to the world. But the producer needs to understand the director's creative vision as well as the director does, so that you can offer advice and offer course corrections is needed that the director might not be able to see because they're down in the trenches. Or another way to think about it is the director is so focused on the trees that they're not able to see the whole lay of the land that the forest is in, which falls in the realm of a producer.
Bob Degus:The producer also is somebody who asks questions that no one else is asking, because, again, they're looking out for the entire overview of the movie. The cinematographer, they're focused on the visual. Production designer, same thing, they're focused on the sets. But the producer is the person who really has the whole entire vision in mind, and because I was a producer for many, many, many years, I always felt that it was you're somewhat the parent in whole organization where you are wanting your child, the film, to come out into the world in the most successful way possible, but you are looking for how best to do that and how best to give your child the film its best chance. And so, why directors who are able to simultaneously think with a producer hat is so important is because it allows them to think about what their decisions creatively, how they're going to impact the budget, how they're going to impact the schedule, how they're going to impact the larger arc of the film.
Bob Degus:And so it's critical that you as a director are able to hold these two tracks in your mind and almost jump back and forth between them. I've always thought, energetically speaking, that directing, because it's so creative, is much more effeminine energies in it, whereas producing is a lot more linear, and so it's more masculine. You want to have a balance of those, and the best directors I've ever worked with really are very fluid at going back and forth between these two realms. So, if you think about this, what are the questions that a producer should be exploring and thinking about when making a movie? So, during development, the number one thing that a producer should be asking themselves and the team that they're assembling is, Is this the right story for this filmmaker to be making at this point in time?
Bob Degus:Does the story have a clear, specific emotional center, or is it unfocused and hasn't found one yet? What does this film actually need to work? Not what would be nice to have, but what is essential for this film to work. That's so critically important, because there are certain things that are extraordinarily unique to a given film, and if you remove them, the film becomes something completely different. And so you really have to identify each film will have one or two key things that are essential for the producer to protect, to tell the story that everyone wants to tell.
Bob Degus:I worked on a film many, many years ago, and it had this zebra that was like this main theme that ran through it. And there was a lot of pressure to remove the zebra, because the zebra was very expensive and it was complicated. But if you remove the zebra from this film, so much of the charm and magic of the film would be gone. So you really want to make sure as a producer that you're holding onto and identifying what are the key things that this particular film needs to be protected. A good example is Pleasantville, where obviously these characters go back into this black and white TV show and they bring color with them and the world starts to turn into color.
Bob Degus:Well, protecting that ability to bring color into the film was critical, to protect that as a producer. That was like the main job, was making sure that that technique and that style would work, because otherwise the film wouldn't work. So, if you are also thinking about, especially in preproduction, what is the scope of this film? Scope is kind of an ambiguous term, but how epic is it? How big does it require that it needs to be?
Bob Degus:So if you're thinking of a period film, that potentially could have more scope, because you have bigger scenes with more extras, with more production design, and that's obviously going to cost more. Or can you tell the same story with a smaller scope? And so you're, as a producer, you're looking through that lens, and as a director, you're looking through that lens with the producer's mind. If I have this big scene where I have 500 extras, that's going to cost a lot more than if it's this intimate scene with three extras. And which is more effective for the film creatively, which is what the director is asking, and then the producer is asking the hybrid of which is more effective for the film, both creatively and financially.
Bob Degus:So, you know, during production, producers are responsible for seeing that everything flows, that what you're thinking, you're setting up the next day's work, you're basically overseeing that this machine is running. You're making decisions about the schedule. Does it make sense to fall a day behind the schedule, so that we can actually get this very important scene finished properly? Or do we have the scene correctly shot and we can move on? And then you could perhaps encourage the director, I think we've got this.
Bob Degus:Let's move on. Because again, the director is focused focused on on the tree, the very specific thing, so the producer is able to see the bigger picture. So, if maybe a director is starting to do too many takes of a particular sequence, the producer, because they understand the creative and the financial aspect of it, can remind the director, you know, I think you got this. Why don't we move forward? And simultaneously, if you're a director and you have in your mind that you're doing you're falling behind schedule or you're doing too many takes, you're able to then make an adjustment or to prioritize, yes, I know I'm doing too many takes, but this scene is a pivotal scene in the movie, and it's critical.
Bob Degus:It is shot correctly, and the scene that we're doing three days from now, we can make up the time on, because that scene is a simpler scene and it's not as important. So you want to be in production as the producer. You are overseeing this whole flow. You are frequently getting the next day or the next day or the next day's work ready, so that when the director and the company shows up there to shoot, everything is prepped and it runs as smoothly as it possibly can. You know, post production, the producer's role switches again, and that is where you're looking at the edit, and you're seeing if it serves the story.
Bob Degus:And you remember, as a producer, you started out way back when with the script, and you've gone through this whole journey, and you are thinking about, this is what we intended to make, this is the material that we collected when we were shooting, Now here's an edit of the movie. What is working, what isn't working, what things need to be removed from the edit to make the story flow more powerfully and more fluidly. And again, the director who can jump back and put on this producer's hat and themselves be looking at their project from both how a producer sees it and how a director sees it, just has a lot more flexibility than a director who only can see the creative vision. You know, these things are not What's the word I want to use? This is really a discipline.
Bob Degus:They're not things that are set up to squash the creative vision. They're things that are there to amplify it, and through the discipline of asking yourself these questions, of examining things simultaneously from how a director is thinking about it and how a producer is thinking about it, really gives you a much more rich, a richer set of choices. I often think about it like if you're a fine art painter painting with oil paints. The size canvas you're painting on changes what the composition is and changes how it feels. So this dynamic between a director and a producer is really often this repeated conversation of how big a canvas do we want to paint on, what's going to be the most effective way to do that.
Bob Degus:Maybe for this scene, a smaller canvas is better. For this scene, we absolutely need a bigger canvas. And those discussions are essential to making the best film. And the more director is able to think like that, while also simultaneously thinking about the creative needs of the project, They're just infinitely more effective in creating a work of art that follows their vision. Of course, the other side of the coin is if you, as a director, are thinking too much like a producer, then you're also not going to be as effective as a director.
Bob Degus:And a good example of that is when I directed my short film, you've told this story before, but the same year I did the film with Brad Pitt, I also directed my own short film, and the film with Brad got nominated for an Oscar, and the film I directed didn't get nominated for an Oscar, and I was quite devastated. But when I look back now on the me who was directing that, I was really living too much in my producer head as a director, and I wasn't focusing on the creative things that the film needed to really succeed. Now, that doesn't mean I wasn't focusing creatively on making the film, but I let the producer hat be too loud in my head as a director, and I made decisions, producing decisions, a producer would make instead of the decisions that a director should be making that come from the creative realms. So, this balance for a director, where you have both hats, you have your director hat that you're doing, and then you have your producer hat that lets you understand the implications of your decisions, are really important, but you do have to keep them in balance, and you do have to weight the director hat slightly more.
Bob Degus:And I think that's a critical thing for someone starting out, that you can't live 100% in the directing world, and you can't, as a director, live 100% in the producing world. You have to find this balance where you're understanding and overseeing both aspects of the project simultaneously. So early in my career, I worked at this company, Chanticleer Films, which I've shared with you in other episodes. And the amazing thing about Chanticleer Films was that we would do eight or nine or 10 productions a year. And I had the opportunity to work with eight or nine directors a year and see different directing styles, what was effective, what was not effective, and the ability to make one production, learn from it, and then make another production, make adjustments, make the next production, profoundly and extraordinarily helpful.
Bob Degus:There's a really good example that I learned. Because we would do these productions kind of back to back, we often would use the same crew from one production to the next production, and we would just swap out the directors. And there was this one particular point in time where the crew was almost 100% the same crew on the first film and on the second film. And the first film was this extraordinarily good experience, and the second film was a very difficult experience. The only thing that swapped out was the director.
Bob Degus:So, we had one director on the first film, obviously, and a different director on the second film, and there were two different experiences. And that really taught me that the approach that the director brings to their filmmaking, and how they treat their crew, and how they treat their actors, changes the entire experience for everyone. And that really shouldn't be a surprise, but I was able to see how different directors reacted and responded to different situations. There's a really interesting When I was at New Line Cinema early in my career, were New Line was making the movie Seven with David Fincher, and we were doing another small indie film. And I was the executive on the small indie film, and I was sort of a junior executive on Seven, which incidentally was written by my college roommate, Andy Walker.
Bob Degus:And so I was really interested. It was a big deal seeing his movie get made. But there was an interesting moment on both of these two films that happened. As is common, you're making the film, you have a certain amount of money, and the director will get some idea that costs more money or that expands the budget or the scope of what you were planning on doing. And I watched how David Fincher handled the studio and how the small indie director handled the same situation with the studio, which was needing more money to expand the sequence.
Bob Degus:And Fincher's approach was to share cut scenes with the studio, to share the enough material so the studio got excited about what this movie was gonna be. And Fincher then would share his ideas. You know, would be even great, even better if we could do this, this, and this. I don't remember what it was now. And I contrast that to the indie director who had less experience, who went the opposite direction, where he shielded the studio.
Bob Degus:He was very afraid of the studio, so he didn't show the studio any footage. He didn't want their input. He didn't want anything. And which of the two directors do you think got an enhancement to their budget to go and do this extra stuff? Well, obviously Fincher, because he got the studio engaged and excited to make the movie better, whereas the director who kept everything private didn't that didn't happen.
Bob Degus:So, it's really important for you as a director to be thinking about managing all of these different aspects that are in part a large part of producing. How you present things to the studio or to your financial backers is part of producing. And so as a director, if you can, learn from Fincher's example and bring that into your own work, you likely will be more effective than if you are keeping everything private and closed off. At the same time, you have to be strategic about that. Fincher didn't show everything to the studio, and he shouldn't.
Bob Degus:But he showed enough to get them excited. We did the same thing with Pleasantville, I remember, because there was a lot of concern. Could you have characters who are both in color and in black and white in the same scene, and would that be strange? And so, as soon as we got far enough into production where we could edit a couple scenes to demonstrate that this technique would work, to make everyone more relaxed about the process, we did that. So, again, that's the director thinking as a producer about how to clear the best path forward for the film.
Bob Degus:So in post production, the producer's role switches again, and they become very much the not the critic isn't even the right word, but this observer where you're looking at the scene objectively and you're really trying to look at the scene from how the audience is going to see it. And that's a little bit even though the director is doing the same thing, the director is in the middle of it, and the producer is one step back, which gives you the ability to sometimes see things that the director can't see. And remember, you're all attempting to make the same film, but you really need that perspective of a producer to look at the film and comment on what is not working, or make one teeny little suggestion that changes everything. And that's a critical, critical role of the producer. It's not always an easy role, because you're the individual coming in and saying, This sequence isn't working.
Bob Degus:Or maybe you might say, This sequence might be stronger if it was assembled like this. Or this is a part of the movie where it's losing my focus. And it's important that the producer is able to have that voice and to be able to share that perspective, because I've really felt after doing so many movies, everybody thinks about that the movie is made on set. That's the glamorous part, where you have the cameras, you have the cranes, you have all the actors, and it looks very exciting and glamorous. But really where the movie is made is in the editing room.
Bob Degus:And you just are collecting the elements and materials that you'll then use in post production in the editing room to shape the movie. And that's the point in time it's very important for the producer to be able to come in with fresh eyes and offer comment on the movie. And I know when I was early in my career, and I was a producer on movies and there was other producers, I wanted to be really involved in postproduction, because I loved editing. And I was bothered that the other producers weren't around during much of the editing, but they would come to screenings and offer comments. And I now know that that is because that perspective of somebody who hasn't seen each little change of the scene, but is able to come in and look at the movie from a fresh perspective, is incredibly valuable.
Bob Degus:So I think, and this again depends on each person's style, but I think it's really important to have very reliable people who know the story you're trying to tell, but haven't seen every little detail, but that then can come in and offer you feedback that's extremely valuable and helps you shape the movie in a way that you as the director might not have thought about. So when I worked at New Line Cinema, I had another opportunity again to work with a lot of different directors and a lot of different producers and see different people's styles to solving the same problems that would come up on each movie. And I think one of the things that was very interesting to me about my career is I very often was in a position where I knew what the studio wanted and what they were thinking. I knew what this group of producers wanted, and I knew what the director was looking for. And it was always interesting watching these different groups of people navigate through these sometimes treacherous waters, because on the surface, everyone wants a great movie.
Bob Degus:But the studio has a slightly different agenda towards that than say the producers have, and that the director also has a slightly different agenda. And it is in the tension between those different agendas that often great art is made. But I really got to see how different individuals solve different problems, and I think for you working on a short film and working with a team, maybe these are people you've worked with before, maybe they're not, the ability for you as a director to momentarily put yourself in the point of view of each person that you're working with and see what they how this looks from their perspective is very helpful. I know one thing I did really frequently as a producer is there's a position on a movie, probably most of you know this, called a production assistant, and it's often an entry level position into a movie, and you're often doing things that no one else wants to do, and a lot of times it's a boring job. You're doing lockup three blocks away from where the filming is, and so I would, as a producer, make sure I got to know the production assistants in what they were interested in doing.
Bob Degus:Maybe you have a production assistant who wants to be a cinematographer in a couple of years, or maybe a production assistant who wants to be a director or a producer. And I would try, when it was possible, to allow those people to attend meetings so they could see, oh, this is what a director is doing. Or, you know, we're doing camera tests today. Why don't you, the production assistant who wants to be a cinematographer, instead of doing your office runs today, we'll replace you, and you go work with the camera department as the camera PA so you can get that experience. Because then what that does is the production assistants become more motivated and just everyone's happier, and so you have a smoother running production.
Bob Degus:So that's a key thing I learned over my time at New Line and over my time producing is it's really important to think about what is it that people who you've hired to work on the movie want to get out of it? And then make sure that that's aligned with where the production is going, and that you can also support them in what they want to be doing a couple years from now. So the question is, how do you develop a producer's mind and a way to think about movies? I was very fortunate, it just came to me very naturally, but I do think it's something that you can develop and you can refine. And one of the things I would suggest that you do first is start watching films as a producer.
Bob Degus:Start thinking about why they got made, start thinking about the logistics, how many scenes are in this, how many, oh wow, there's four scenes with a lot of extras, this is a very small production, it's just a few people in a couple rooms, start thinking about what it is that this film needed to work and be successful. What are the choices that they may, Oh, they shot this in 70 millimeter. Why? They didn't shoot it in 70 millimeter, they shot it digitally. Why?
Bob Degus:Start asking those questions and deconstructing the movie from this point of view of how did it get made, what were the logistics that made it, if you can find out how many days did they spend shooting. Is there a pattern? Are movies that spend sixty days shooting better than movies that get shot in thirty days? I used to feel I would hear Stanley Kubrick would spend four hundred days shooting a movie, and I would think to myself, Anybody can make a good movie in four hundred days. It's really directors who are trying to shoot something in thirty five days and pull it off that's, to me, in some ways more amazing.
Bob Degus:But you can start training your mind by thinking about films from this perspective of how a producer might look at it. You know, then you can apply, as you develop this, apply these producer questions to your own work, like asking these same questions. Does this scene serve the story? Is this the right person for the role? Is there a better casting group of people?
Bob Degus:Who are the right cinematographers for this? And thinking about, well, these cinematographers have this sort of look, these other ones have that sort of look. And you're almost removing yourself from being in the middle of the story and looking at it from the outside, trying to figure out how to fit pieces like this together. And again, there's not a right or wrong answer, but the more you can think this way, the more successful you can be. And then also, I think, be honest with your blind spots.
Bob Degus:There are things that you're going to be able to do extraordinarily well, and then there are other things that you're going to have weak spots. You can do them, but you're not going to be great at them. And I think it's really critical to learn where your weak spots are, and contrary to the normal advice of practice, get better in those areas that you're weak, I would suggest you lean into the areas that you're strong, and partner with someone else who's strong in the areas that you are weak. So, if you're, you know, so that you have this balance in your team of where everyone is working from a position of strength and in their strongest suits, and you have a much stronger team that way, I think. And that's something, again, that will come as you obviously, there probably will be things that come to you right away that you think about, Okay, I'm strong in this, I'm strong in that, but I'm not strong in these areas.
Bob Degus:And so then just look for a collaborator and a partner who is, and in that way, you develop a really strong team together. There's not a right way to produce, just like there's not a right way to be a director. There are ways, perhaps, that are more effective, and there are ways that are going to be more effective for you as you go on this journey, that might be different than what was effective for me. I had the strength of really understanding film budgets very easily. I understood film schedules very easy.
Bob Degus:I was able to read a script and imagine what it would take to make it. How many grips we'd need, how many locations, how manyall of those pieces, for whatever reason, in my mind, very easy for me. Another producer, that might be really opaque, but that producer has great casting skills. They think they know who all the actors are. They know what actors would fit extraordinarily well in these roles.
Bob Degus:The combination of people who have different focuses, but that overlap and are complementary to each other is really the key. And I think for you as directors, the more you can incorporate both hats, the more successful you're going to find yourself, and I think the stronger films you're going to make. So I hope this podcast has been helpful, and I hope it's given you some insights and new ways to think about your work and how you bring your work into the world. One more thing, if today's episode sparked something for you, head over to hollywoodfilmcoach.substack.com for the companion piece. It's original writing that goes deeper into the most important idea from today's episode and includes links to every film we've talked about so you can watch them yourself and form your own conclusions.
Bob Degus:The gap between a good short film and a great one that wins awards is smaller than you think. I'm Bob Degus. This is the Hollywood Film Coach Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, follow us, and check out the next episode. Join me in episode 10, where we look at how everything we've been discussing so far plays out in one great short film.
